the motown date

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The motown date…
…had less motown and more groping than I had anticipated; or wanted.

* * *

In the midst of dancing with SDF in my living room, about ten or fifteen minutes after he had arrived, I was thinking to myself: how will I blog this date? what will I say? is there any hope here?

I’m afraid not, I answered myself.

Even thinking about blogging the date helped me to process it, when it had barely begun.

* * *

THE GOOD THINGS

1) he sliced tomatoes well.
Instead of going out somewhere to dance, we had decided to ‘practice’ first in my apartment, to determine how our different ‘dancing styles’ worked together. Then we decided not to go out anywhere — it was getting late — and to eat in. He suggested we call out for food, but — anticipating this moment — I had bought some cherry tomatoes and a few other little things. I organized a meal of fettucini (already had it) and freshly grated romano cheese with thinly sliced tomatoes. I asked SDF to slice the tomatoes, which he did happily and well, first asking which direction I wanted them sliced. Because my ex-husband had always been exceedingly fussy about the way pasta was cooked, and because Performer was fussy about everything to do with food, I asked SDF how he felt about pasta, and he answered something like, ‘I’m not fussy about food,’ a phrase that was music to my ears.

So it was fun standing there side by side in my small kitchen, SDF slicing the tomatoes and me grating the cheese. It wasn’t cosily domestic, but it was relaxing (probably especially relaxing for me, because I had given him something else to do with his hands — but more of that later).

We also had shredded zuccini and yellow squash, dunked in boiling water for a moment and then tossed in olive oil, salt and pepper.

SDF had brought with him a 750ml bottle of Gruet Brut “Méthode Champenoise” — not really Champagne, I’ve just learned from the web, but a very good substitute. It was empty by the end of the evening: I drank about 3 ounces of it. And SDF was not drunk; he carries his liquor well.

2) SDF has lots of friends, family, and co-workers, with all of whom he seems to be on good terms. They featured often in his conversation. That’s one thing I’ve come to look for in a first-date conversation: is his side of it ‘populated’ ? do lots of proper names come up in his anecdotes ? does he appear to like people, to get along with them, or does he have unpleasant stories about ‘the time I was right and So-and-So was wrong’ or ‘why I’m not on speaking terms with my son’ etc. etc. ?

SDF passed this unofficial test with flying colors.

3) It was my general impression that SDF was an honest, decent, modest, easy-going person, and he had a warm smile. Of course such judgments after a second-date may be meaningless, but there they are. From what I’ve read about him on the web, he does very well in his job, for which he has received much public praise, and when anything related to it comes up in the news, SDF is interviewed by the New York Times, which has often quoted him. He seemed to have (sorry, cliche) ‘good values.’

4) He’s smart. We did finally have that Hillary-or-Obama conversation that everyone I know seems to be having these days, and he discussed that choice on a very high level in an informed way.

THE NOT-SO-GOOD THINGS

I’m not sure why I made that plural, because it’s really just one, one really important, not-so-good thing.

At that moment I mentioned at the beginning of this post, when I was already experiencing disappointment in SDF, he was pawing and groping me in a way that can only be called adolescent. (This was all taking place while we were dancing.) I found myself thinking of Performer and how much better, on our first date, he understood when was a good time to make the first move.

You know if I’m thinking anything positive about Performer — and I couldn’t help myself; he came to mind, because he was the last man I had any kind of sexual relationship with — things are not good, and I’m being entirely honest. I was shocked that I had a positive thought about him, but I knew there was a meaning there I had to figure out.

It’s not that, god knows, I didn’t think something sexual of some kind or another would happen during the evening, but I thought that so soon after his arrival — about fifteen minutes — and before any significant conversational exchange had taken place, was way too soon.

Perhaps this is a ‘duh!’ point to make, but conversation is really important to me. We had good talk at various points in the evening, over dinner and late at night, between about 12:30 and 1:30 intermittently, but I felt discombobulated by the pawing & groping that had taken place earlier and continued when we danced after dinner. My reaction was both polite (too polite, evidently) and light-hearted: I kept moving out of his grasp, re-tying my shrug that he had just untied etc. , all the while smiling.

He smiled too; but he should have gotten the message.

And I should have given it directly, though you would think body language (e.g. moving his hands, moving myself away, refastening my bra) would have sufficed.

I did give the message directly later in the evening — after midnight. But I couldn’t bring myself to articulate (earlier) the following: SDF, please stop doing that. It’s too early (meaning, both too early in the evening and too early in the relationship).

* * *

Later, after midnight, when we had stopped replacing the cds and were alternately kissing and talking, he said, ‘How does it feel to be a woman whom men are trying to get their hands all over?’ or words to that effect.

Clearly, he had had a flash of insight and was beginning to identify with my resistance, or at least to try to understand it.

What I didn’t say, and perhaps should have, is that no other man (30 besides him) ‘behaved’ (the only word I can think of) that way.

The other men (in my post-June 2006 - dating-life) with whom anything sexual happened — sleeping with (3) or making out (1) — didn’t make advances that were repulsed. Or to put it another way, I never repulsed any of their advances, but if I had, I’m sure they would have stopped at once and not persevered.

I’m sure you’re getting a terrible impression of SDF, and it’s hard to convey what he’s like. He really wasn’t terrible. I know if I had seemed genuinely upset, he would have ceased his efforts. I was laughing and taking it lightly (while repulsing his advances), but inwardly I was sad that this relationship was not going to work. His affection was almost puppyish: he was sort of like a dog who keeps jumping on you and being too friendly. He must not have realized that (as I myself didn’t altogether figure out or conclude till he had left) he was thereby ruining the relationship that might have been.

* * *

SDF has been apart from his ex-wife for a year, but has had I think only had 6 internet dates. He discusses his romantic life with a woman colleague a little older who is also internet-dating. He had told her (beforehand) about his second date with me; if he tells her about it afterwards, in all its details,I bet she’ll tell him he made some mistakes. She sounded sophisticated… more so than he is.

* * *
You’re wondering why the hell I didn’t just tell him directly Stop the groping, SDF! as soon as it began, or after a few minutes of it.

I’ve just figured that out: it’s that I couldn’t quite give up my idea of him as a really good possibility, a viable date who might turn into a relationship, even a long-term one. In his presence, I couldn’t confirm for myself the disconnect between the man I had thought and had hoped he was, and the man he apparently was. And that ‘confirmation’ was made more difficult by the fact that he was easy-going and pleasant and simply had no idea how annoying he was being or how destructive to any future his behavior was.

Last week, after the fiasco of my appointment with ‘the tardy psychiatrist’, I wrote in my post, Although I couldn’t have said it for sure till the moment I was outside on the street again, I knew it absolutely without a single doubt then: never, never would I see this psychiatrist again. Clearly, I need to have solitude and space, however briefly, to know my own mind.

BITS OF OUR CONVERSATION ON THE SOFA, AFTER MIDNIGHT

SDF to me, over and over: You’re so sexy.

* * *

(in the midst of a relatively long conversational interlude)

ME: Well, since we’re being so honest, tell me what my dancing was like.

SDF: It was passable.

ME: What was wrong with it?

SDF: You’re too stiff. You don’t move freely enough.

ME Well, that’s very interesting. You’re probably right. That makes sense to me. My teacher never says that, of course, because it’s not in his interest to talk that way to me. And he sees small bits of improvement. And also, over the course of a lesson, I loosen up. But we were changing styles here, so I couldn’t really loosen up in any one of them.

(And also, of course, though I didn’t say it, a lot of my energy was being devoted to fending off his advances.)

* * *

Before he left, we made a movie date for next Saturday. I wonder if it will happen. SDF is an emailer, and I haven’t heard from him at all today (Sunday). I wonder what he’s thinking, and if he has any notion at all that he messed things up between us.

And do I want a movie date with him? What would be the point, except to tell him afterwards why I didn’t want to date him again? Not that I want to be didactic about it, but he would indeed ‘learn something’ if I told him what I felt, more than the polite and fairly brief comments I made about this subject while we were on the sofa.

* * *

After he left, I kept asking myself, Could this possibly work? is there any chance? do I like him enough? or is he just too uncouth? and is he interesting enough to me?

I realized that to help me figure out what I thought, I was spontaneously thinking of two men with more polish, RS (Rolly’s shrink, who has agreed to take me on) and, oddly enough, Performer. He’s still at the top of my shitlist, but I was trying to remember what his degree of polish was like, and it was definitely higher — high enough that I didn’t think of it as a category, as alas I did with SDF, who nevertheless is ‘nicer’ and easier to get on with than Performer.

But.

Movie or not, there’s no future here. This is not going to work.

* * *

Explore posts in the same categories: bodies, dancing, jdate, new guys, the taxonomy of dating

20 Comments on “the motown date”

  1. charlene Says:

    Two immediate thoughts here. First, you’re in your sixties and guys tell you you’re sexy and want to put their hands on you and take your bra off…

    I haven’t been reading you long, but I doubt I’m the first to tell you I’m floored by that. Amazed. In awe. On the floor.

    Second: You’re in your sixties and you still haven’t learned to assert yourself???

    How long does us take us women to learn this? We’re so socialized to be nice, consider other people’s feelings and doubt our own, but by this time in life we should realize that’s crap. I work on this every day and am getting better, but I feel I should be better at it by now (late 40s).

    I would have said something in the first 15 minutes. Or, I like to think I would have. Or I’m working on getting to that point, anyway. It’s the only benefit of getting old to look forward to, well deserved compensation for fallen bodies and faces (if you don’t look like Mimi apparently does).

  2. sexagenarian07 Says:

    Somehow ‘in your sixties’ sounds older than i am. let’s put it this way: a year ago i was 59! i’m _just_ 60 now.

    if i had met this situation before, i would have been quicker and firmer and more definitive in my response. i should have been. but i don’t think i’ve been in this situation since 1965….believe me, next time, if there is such a next time with someone else, i’ll make my feelings a lot clearer.

  3. pt Says:

    Mimi, with all due respect, I can’t believe that on a second internet date, you would invite a man to your apartment. Think of the message that you are sending by doing so. I will quote you to you — “It’s too early.” And the activity was to practice dancing, which is an overtly touchy-feely thing! To be fair to this guy, you turned on him mid-stream. Practicing dancing in your apartment, deciding to eat in because it was getting late, cooking together — these are all intimate, even seductive things. You are sending a message very different from, say, a meeting at a restaurant in a public place. The latter says “Getting to know you.” The former says “My place or yours?” Though he obviously was not reading you very well, and should have been much more restrained, to an objective reader it sounds that you framed him.

  4. sexagenarian07 Says:

    in general, it’s hard to argue against what you say, but i’ll take a stab at it.

    first, i’ve been to men’s apartments this early before, and not only have they not come near me, they have kept a distance.
    – read my post of 18 april 07 about going to a man’s house for dinner on a second date
    – read january ‘live-blogging’ post about date with RB, the sweet, widowed, septuagenarian at whose huge, grand apartment i had tea after our dinner on
    a first date. he was such an old-fashioned gentleman that when i kissed him goodnight, lightly, on the lips, he jumped. poor guy.
    – read april post about date with ‘mark.’ he came to my apt on easter sunday, first date, when it was freezing cold and we had been walking. we sat there shivering over our cups of tea. no physical contact. (we’re still friendly and communicate via email, but no romance).
    performer, whom i dated for six months, came to my apartment after a movie and dinner on our first date, but nothing sexual happened until it was by mutual consent. he asked, ‘do you like to be touched?’ asked that, because his notquiteexwife had not wanted to be touched for the last few years. so that was the paradigm i had in mind: when the moment seems appropriate to both parties, ‘touching’ will occur.

    in short, nothing like this has happened to me since 1965.

    second, it’s not that i didn’t expect anything sexual to happen. it’s that i didn’t expect it to happen that quickly and that way. judging by these other experiences, i’d say most men would have waited till quite a while after dinner before making a first move, and they wouldn’t have made that move in the awkward, adolescent way that SDF did.

    in this respect — groping — SDF was simply entirely unlike every other man — and that’s THIRTY others — i’ve dated since i started this phase of my dating life. they just don’t do that at this age (SDF is 60). so i tried to treat it as a joke, but of course it wasn’t. i just hadn’t met this situation for the past forty-two years….it was hard to take seriously.

    SDF was (v. post) like an annoying puppy: he didn’t get it. but he is really a decent person. i think i just should have expressed myself unambiguously in WORDS at the first touch. great wisdom to have, but i truly doubt the situation will ever arise again: one man out of thirty-one (since june 06) is a pretty low percentage.

  5. Dating Trooper Says:

    Hi Mimi -Here’s my two cents. If a second date causes this much anxiety, hemming and hawwing, I would say forget it. Dating is supposed to also be sort of fun, you know? Like spending some time with someone to do fun things, not just something we do to torture ourselves as we try to find “the one.” But I get that you don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater because he has some good qualities too. I would call or email him now and tell him the truth. You liked his personality enough to go out with him but won’t because of his inappropriate behavior. I would also admit to him that you should have said something more assertive at the time but just couldn’t muster it. If he really likes you, perhaps he’ll beg you for another chance with the promise he will behave himself. Then make a third date that is far less “tempting” by keeping it out of your apartments and in public.
    Well, there’s my advice for what it’s worth! Keep on dancing!

  6. Hostis Toia Says:

    I have lots of sympathy for both of you in this situation. Poor SDF — so likable and pleasant, but so gauche in one of the fundamentals. And you were in the very uncomfortable position of liking someone and being completely disconcerted by his behavior.

    It sounds as though you were at just the most awkward point for this to happen: you’d gotten to like him, but not yet to feel the warmth and ease that makes it possible (though still difficult) to express surprise and displeasure as soon as something unpleasant happens. I do think that women of our age have been excessively encouraged to suppress our own feelings to avoid hurting others’, but I think doing this with someone you like is pretty easy to understand.

    I think it is kind of you to see him again and tell him more clearly what the problem was; I hope he is as good at taking honest criticism as he is at giving it — his comment on your dancing sounded honest and carefully limited to one helpful statement. At least, it sounded helpful if you felt he had a point.

    Anyway, I don’t think you led him on; you were at your apartment for a good reason — and it was YOUR apartment, sending a signal that you’d be in control.

    And based on some of the reactions you’ve gotten from men, I wouldn’t bet on this not happening again … although I certainly hope it doesn’t.

  7. a&v Says:

    I also need solitude and space to know my own mind, so I totally understand your not shutting him down right away. In fact, I have been in your shoes before and this seems absolutely plausible and understandable to me! SDF seems exuberantly adolescent (in this area at least, and who knows where else this adolescence may rear its pock-marked head?) and no match for someone of your spark and sophistication.

  8. CJ Says:

    mimi,

    I disagree with the other two comments so strongly that I had to comment.

    I can completely understand your “nice” way of pushing him off. He should get the damn hint the first or second time you push him away, despite the smile. Any gentleman would! I’m sure if he were too pushy, you would have asserted yourself. Yo

    You are the judge of his character and have the right to see him anywhere. He should not assume just because you invited him into your home he can grope you - especially after you repeatedly indicated you were not enjoying it. again, any gentleman would get it!

    I would peg SDF as a selfish human being who doesn’t attempt to read a woman to see what she wants from him. His own selfish desires ruled his behavior on date #2 and probably beyond. He may be interesting, intelligent and possibly charming, but I somehow doubt he’d take the time to really figure out who you are and what makes you happy. Isn’t that what we all want?

    I’d say ditch the date on Saturday and find some fun elsewhere. Unless there is a movie you are dying to see.

    :)

  9. pt Says:

    You don’t need to argue against me. I am merely pointing out something that might be more easily seen by an objective party.
    But I still don’t think it is good policy to be in a person’s apartment on the 2nd internet date, even if you’ve done it several times. It is, of course, your prerogative not to like his approach. C’est la vie.
    Why have you accepted another date with this guy if you are absolutely not interested? I think the word might be “tease.” I think leading someone on is unkind, even if you are not an unkind person and don’t intend it that way. You’ve complained about others doing it to you.

  10. Melissa Says:

    Hi! So much to say…

    What makes your blog GREAT is that it breaks the stereotype whereby people over the age of 50 throw in the “sexual towel” so-to-speak. Clearly, life AND lust go on and you are CLEARLY sexy and fabulous and we should not be surprised by that.

    Also, I totally get why you didn’t tell him to back off sooner, and it’s just what you said: You weren’t quite ready to accept that this wasn’t going to work. Once you voiced those firm words “BACK OFF!”, you would have made real in an instant your feelings. Not just to him, but to you, as well. And you weren’t ready.

    One of the best lines in this post is, “Clearly, I need to have solitude and space, however briefly, to know my own mind.” This resonates for me on so many levels and may explain my own recent “silence”.

    Regarding inviting someone to your apartment, I believe there are no hard and fast rules. We must look for signs and listen to our gut. You spent an evening with SDF, looked him up online, and listened to your intuition. Despite his “roaming hands”, he eventually backed off once you made it clear enough for him to understand. He wasn’t a threat — just a “puppy”, like you said.

    In other words, MY gut tells me you’re doing OK.

    ;)

  11. sexagenarian07 Says:

    wow.
    thank you *so* much, everyone, for your wise words; and they really are wise. i’ve read all your comments 3x, and with them ringing in my ears, i just sent SDF the following email message, which i very much hope he doesn’t google and find this comment. in fact, i may delete it next week. but i thought you’d find it interesting to read, because it’s clear your comments helped clarify for me what i should say.

    Dear SDF,

    i am befuddled about you and don’t know what to say.

    as you now know, i try to be honest and direct, so first i’m stating my uncertainty about what i want to say, and now i’ll attempt to say something!

    i really don’t like being groped. i was smiling at you because i wanted to be polite, but i thought my actions made my feelings clear.

    just to be absolutely unambiguous: i’m talking about your actions with your hands while we were dancing, not whatever happened between us on the sofa late in the evening.

    at any rate, when my actions didn’t have the desired result, i should have been more assertive, and i should have said directly what i was feeling. that failure was my mistake.

    however, much as i value directness, it’s not always easy for me to know precisely what i’m feeling in a new and complicated situation. and i should say, that of the many men i’ve dated in the last year and a half, over thirty men (i’m talking about quantity of men; their ages have been between 61 and 74), you’re the only one who has groped me that way. so when you asked, at about 12:30 a.m., ‘how does it feel to be a woman men want to put their hands all over?’ i was tongue-tied, because no other man has acted as you acted. the ones with whom anything sexual developed waited till the moment seemed ripe; they didn’t start in 15 minutes after the beginning of a date. they waited. i haven’t been groped in that way since i was 18.

    sexual activity is really more fun when one person isn’t resisting. and if you thought my resistance was just a form of teasing, well, that’s my fault for not being more definitive.

    so my feelings afterwards were really mixed: i still liked you, found you smart, funny, interesting to talk with, attractive, a person with good values etc etc., but somehow i was also disappointed and felt there was no future, no possibility of a relationship. that was my gut feeling late saturday/early sunday, and it still is late monday. i’ve waited to write till i could articulate that gut response.

    if, knowing all this, you’d still like to see ‘persepolis’ with me saturday evening, and if you agree not to grope me in the movie theatre (!), i’d be happy to make plans with you and to get the tickets.

    however, if you feel, what would be the point? i can understand that also.

    so think it over and let me know.

    yours in honesty and good humor and other stuff,

    mimi PS TO BLOG-READERS: i’ll let you know his response.

  12. sexagenarian07 Says:

    his response (fairly soon after my message was sent):

    Thank you for your honesty.

    I am sorry that I made you uncomfortable. I have so much to learn and control is not one of my strong points. I have not gone out much so i don’t even know what is appropriate now. I know that it must be strange to hear that from a man who is 60 years old. I seem to fall back into the pattern of an 18 year old. I was married the first time at 19 and the second time within two years of the first one ending.

    Both of my marriages were very fast and I have to learn to slow down. I’m not sure that I know how to do that. I certainly enjoyed being with you.

    I would like to see the movie with you and I will exercise control.

    Perhaps an old dog can learn new ways. If you don’t want to take that chance, I certainly understand.
    ************
    mimi again (to blog-readers):

    that’s very much what i thought the problem was: inexperience & ignorance. he’s really a person of good will.

    don’t worry: i won’t be seduced into a relationship just because he’s so agreeable. he would be good fling material, but a fling is not what i want now. i want something more serious.

    if i hold his hand during the movie, it will only be so i can determine where it is
    (ha ha….).

  13. junohenry Says:

    OK, i come to comment late in the day, so please forgive me my tardiness. (Curse my Google reader!!)

    1. “refastening my bra strap”?? Holy moly. During a dance? Sheesh. I had to pause while i picked up my eyes that actually fell OUT OF MY HEAD.

    2. Much of the other stuff i wanted to say has been said already (gah!) but here is something. You mention polish, and how polished Performer was. Well, you know my opinion of Performer, and if he was polished, then please, pass me some some acid.

    From my own experience I have to tell you that I think that SDF might well be worth a second chance if all he lacks is polish. Especially considering that when you raised the issue — and i do understand why you felt uncomfortable doing it at the time but you did have the oomph to do it afterwards by mail, and i heartily applaud that you did it period — he immediately took responsibility, heard your concerns, listened to you and promised to try harder.

    Whether he will succeed is entirely for you to judge. (And report back to us, natch.) I mean, if ever there was the ultimate challenge for a serial groper, it’s a dark cinema. (I recomend a nice squeezy tube of hand cream to squirt over him if he misbehaves.) But if anything ever made someone worth a second date it’s the willingness to accept that he might have been wrong. Especially sexegenarian Jewish men. (I speak from fullsome and extensive experience of the species, and I’m also Jewish — it’s not an antisemitic comment!!)

    Either way, you still rock, Mimi. Kisses… Juno x

  14. sexagenarian07 Says:

    i burst into a loud giggle [or should i just write LOL] at the idea of a ‘dark cinema’ as the ‘ultimate challenge for a serial groper.’ but i don’t think it’s serial — 2 wives, 6 recent dates, and no signif adult dating experience except between 1978 and 1980. he is or was just clueless about contemporary dating etiquette. whether the saturday movie date is a ’second chance’ or not, i’m not sure. i strongly doubt it, because i know for certain he isn’t long- term material. just how short-term he is remains to be seen.

  15. cobalt_00 Says:

    Well, it’s a little late, but I weigh in with CJ and Melissa - your apartment, you call the shots. Inviting someone to come to your apartment is NOT equal to propositioning them. I’m glad he promised to do better and hope he does indeed do so.
    I’d say continue to go with your gut, and I hope the third date pans out! And I hope this hasn’t put you off of motown. ;)

  16. sexagenarian07 Says:

    no, on the contrary, i love motown now and wish there had been more motown during that date! but the cds he brought did not have my favorite songs, the ones mentioned in the last post, so i’ll have to get hold of them.

  17. Engelschauen Says:

    Way to go, Mimi. What good instincts you have — SDF’s response was so thoughtful it shows that you were right to write to him.

    Not only is your blog terrific, you have the greatest commenters — junohenry sounds like the kind of friend everyone should have — gives great advice while cracking you up so that you can’t help feeling better about everything.

    Best of luck on all your future dates.

  18. sexagenarian07 Says:

    but i’m still uncertain about SDF — suppose we have a _good_ movie date?

    then what??

    he’s not LTR material….

    obviously, i’ll just have to have the date and see what my increasingly-wise instincts tell me.

  19. junohenry Says:

    1. Engelschauer: what a charmingly lovely thing to say. Thank you!

    2. Mimi — i know that we’re talking sexegenarian dating here as opposed to teenage or even mid-to-late twenties dating… but what exactly constitutes LTR material? I mean, is it not possible to just “go with the flow”?

    (No, SDF is not paying me to fight his corner. Just writing on gut instinct.)

  20. sexagenarian07 Says:

    [maybe the conversation can move to the Comments after the next post? the story continues there. but i'll answer juno here]

    well (v. comment on next post to viviane), LTR for me means for ever and ever — never having to date again. that’s the situation i thought i was in w. performer. i’m so tired of dating! a ‘fling’ [for me] is a relationship i know will be temporary, that i engage in just for the fun and the sex. LTR is romantic, ’serious,’ he meets my family, i meet his, ‘in sickness & in health’ (but no marriage). SDF’s groping was so impersonal and, to me, so Unromantic, that i don’t think there can be any mystery or romance around him for me at all. i could be wrong, but i’ll see on saturday. he’s definitely attractive, but i felt something was lost w. all that groping. and he had a sort of stupid smile on his face at the time. i don’t think it will happen again, but what can be salvaged from it all i’ll have to see on saturday. also, i’m not sure if his mind would satisfy me in the long term, but maybe.

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